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My calculated net hourly pay after expenses is

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Discussion Starter · #162 ·
I see we are still confused. Seems you pulled a stat for an employee (and i doubt they have a 'salary'). And you use that to compare to a gig contractor?

That is exactly like comparing a salaried job to an hourly job. 🤷‍♂️
The point of this thread was to explore whether the Ants are overcompensated relative to their skills. To help answer that question, I looked to other similar jobs that would require a similar skillset. We've thoroughly discussed the puts and takes of Anting vs. salaried positions.
 

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Let me ask the board a more focused question. If you had the option of a flat hourly rate (while retaining all the flexibility), what would be an honestly fair rate? For me I would say $30 an hour is adequate, because we do pay expenses out of our earnings, for little things, you know, like the car. What does everyone else think? And I'm NOT asking how much you want, but rather what do you think is fair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #166 ·
OP gives himself a new nickname every few months 😄
For those Ants that don't frequent the Dallas boards, I have been glossed with various nicknames:
  1. De La Crème: because everything I do is of the highest quality and held to the highest standards
  2. Brass or Brassman: referencing a certain part of my anatomy
  3. T-Love: Because I am extremely handsome with a beautiful olive complexion, chiseled physique, and full head of gorgeous hair. I dated one of the most famous women on the planet and was pursued by a supermodel
  4. Gigabrain: we already went over my 3 degrees from the most prestigious and exclusive universities and top percentile IQ that would have qualified me for Mensa had I wanted to join
 

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The point of this thread was to explore whether the Ants are overcompensated relative to their skills.
what skills? Ability to get a driver's license? ability to secure insurance? Can you go to college and learn those skills? Kinda the entire point for a percent of drivers is the entry bar for RS is set at the lowest level. It is not a career. It is not a salaried (still think you confused on that) position and mostly likely not ever an hourly job.

How does a gig compare to a real W2 job? It doesn't. You can only compare it to other non-employee status jobs.

Like maybe to a taxi driver? Might have had less push back. Maybe.

btw, you should explain to the person who created the graph shuttle drivers aren't paid a 'salary'. Their supervisor most likely is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #168 · (Edited)
what skills? Ability to get a driver's license? ability to secure insurance? Can you go to college and learn those skills? Kinda the entire point for a percent of drivers is the entry bar for RS is set at the lowest level. It is not a career. It is not a salaried (still think you confused on that) position and mostly likely not ever an hourly job.

How does a gig compare to a real W2 job? It doesn't. You can only compare it to other non-employee status jobs.

Like maybe to a taxi driver? Might have had less push back. Maybe.

btw, you should explain to the person who created the graph shuttle drivers aren't paid a 'salary'. Their supervisor most likely is.
I agree - I've stated that the job requires essentially zero skill, which is why earnings in the range of a college graduate does not seem reasonable.

I disagree that you can't compare to W2 work. It's important to compare the job to alternatives and to not just focus on the negatives, but also the benefits of Anting. We can easily compare the roles and note the differences.
 

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I disagree that you can compare to W2 work.
have you even had a W2 job for any extended length of time? You seem to have no idea you can't compare a W2 job M-F at least 40hr a week to a gig where one can work when they want and for how long. How do you compare a job that requires a resume, an interview, sometimes testing to a gig that requires none of those and then somehow compare the amount each makes?

At best you could compare RS to an entry level, no skills required, minimum paying job. That's it.

and remember to lose the word 'salaried' as it can't be used here, in any way. (y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #172 ·
have you even had a W2 job for any extended length of time? You seem to have no idea you can't compare a W2 job M-F at least 40hr a week to a gig where one can work when they want and for how long. How do you compare a job that requires a resume, an interview, sometimes testing to a gig that requires none of those and then somehow compare the amount each makes?

At best you could compare RS to an entry level, no skills required, minimum paying job. That's it.

and remember to lose the word 'salaried' as it can't be used here, in any way. (y)
Yes sir, I currently have a career with a white shoe finance firm. I get paid very handsomely to invest large quantums in businesses for my fiduciaries. I spend my days speaking to c-suite level management teams to understand their businesses, org charts, etc. I model out PnL's so am very aware of salaries for various positions and compensation structures. Cash is king, so it's my job to understand exactly how cash flows through complex businesses.

I compared RS to both college grad type jobs and close alternatives like shuttle driving.
 

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I get paid very handsomely to invest large sums in businesses for my fiduciaries.
in your own mind, no doubt. I normally have a 70% filter in that i don't believe what I see here. With a few, you for instance, that filter is like 98%.

You are a W2 baller, and investment baller and high roller baller.......who does RS and hangs out in a smallish social network website. Did I miss anything?


Back to it: you still have not explained how you can compare a RS gig to anything BUT a minimum wage paying job. You have all the variables wrong or so out of whack they can't be used without long winded explanations.

And still haven't explained you know the difference between hourly and a salaried position. Perhaps that is the root of your opinion problem. 🤷‍♂️

think the dallas sub is calling you to return. :ROFLMAO:
 

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Discussion Starter · #174 ·
in your own mind, no doubt. I normally have a 70% filter in that i don't believe what I see here. With a few, you for instance, that filter is like 98%.

You are a W2 baller, and investment baller and high roller baller.......who does RS and hangs out in a smallish social network website. Did I miss anything?


Back to it: you still have not explained how you can compare a RS gig to anything BUT a minimum wage paying job. You have all the variables wrong or so out of whack they can't be used without long winded explanations.

And still haven't explained you know the difference between hourly and a salaried position. Perhaps that is the root of your opinion problem. 🤷‍♂️

think the dallas sub is calling you to return. :ROFLMAO:
Let me put it this way - my salary + bonus even when haircut by 70% (leaving 30% remaining) would still be something you would die for. And that's not even counting my household income which is very robust when considering my sweetie's very lucrative career. As noted earlier in the thread, I post here as part of my charity work. My content has tended to focus on helping the ants improve themselves and their work productivity. I am also something of a role model to many - the quintessential manifestation of the American Dream.

Of course, I understand the difference between salaried and hourly pay. Did you see my job is to understand fixed (salaries) and variable (hourly) costs for complex businesses in order to project future cash flows? Can't structure deals without understanding future cash flows.
 

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Discussion Starter · #176 · (Edited)
Pompous. If you're quintessential I'm Donald ****ing Duck.
I should also note that some call me Lord Slaylish after Lord Baelish from Game of Thrones. It's somewhat related to the Brass nickname, but I received it for my viral posts during the depths of Covid. I encouraged the Ants to think about the dislocations in the economy caused by Covid and to view the ensuing chaos as a ladder to a better life. I famously plowed as much capital as I could get my hands on into equities at the bottom of the market and made a killing, hence the Slay.

 

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Discussion Starter · #177 ·
I don't think your whole premise is wrong. I think some of the details are pesky, and also you seem to want to believe some things that veteran drivers know to be false. Like the fact that Uber never fires anyone for no reason. Let's pick that apart. Sure, they have a reason, usually someone complained. But the people pushing back on this in the thread are basically saying (without being specific in the words) that there wasn't a JUST reason. I think we would all agree that sometimes drivers are deactivated when in fact they are innocent. I think we would also all agree that some drivers ARE under the influence, or handsy with the ladies, or careless with their words, or bad at driving or unsafe in some way. So yeah, is there a reason someone was deactivated, yes. Is there a JUST reason? Sometimes.

Some of the differences of opinion here are semantics. Like reason VS. just reason. People don't usually spell out every little detail, they usually assume the listener is on the same page. Communication though... LOL

I think what you are experiencing in the pushback here is this: No one thinks that they themselves are over paid. People want more and often equate that with deserving more. And people can give you reasons why they deserve more. But at the end of the day, the market determines the value of what any individual does by how much people are willing to pay them to do it. For better or worse, right or wrong. In a way, EVERYONE in EVERY profession is being paid what the market values that profession at. (There are probably holes in that logic but go ahead and poke holes in it).

If I am completely objective with myself, I DO feel like I'm being overpaid when I take a 3 minute trip and get $30 dollars for it. But I don't feel overpaid in general.

This critical thinking also applies to discussions about Uber's take rate. People look at individual trips where uber kept a lot of the money (usually high surge trips) but they never seem to realize that when you drive to a sticky surge, you get OVERPAID for your next ride if the next ride is not in a surge area. IE, you go to the $10 surge, it sticks to you, you go elsewhere, and the customer requests a ride at base rates, and you still get the $10 extra. Drivers who think dollar surge is bad should look at trips where you get surge that the rider didn't pay, and realize that, at least SOME of that money comes back to you here and there. Not saying all of it (before people pounce on me). But some of it.
I apologize, I missed your excellent and well-balanced post. I'll react to a couple of points.

I tried to acknowledge that UBER doesn't fire folks without at least an allegation of impropriety. We could argue whether their approach to adjudicating matters is ideal, but companies are often forced to play the role of judge and jury without perfect information (think of your star athlete put on leave while the team and league investigate allegations). Ideally, those matters would be handled in the appropriate venue, a court of law. But companies must decide how to approach the situation before the facts are fully brought to bear.

I think we agree that folks just want more and therefore feel underpaid, regardless of what the numbers say or what their skills demand. That's not pushback, that's just uninformed subjective opinion. The point of my post was to cut through the noise and look at actual pay when compared to alternative options for employment.

We definitely agree that the market, over longer periods, determines the value of one's skills. I say longer-term because perhaps UBER subsidized driver pay in early years with investor dollars as an incentive to bring them to the platform. Ergo, rates weren't paid directly in relation to the level of skill required, but total pay captured both output and incentives to get the marketplace flywheel spinning. Proof of this would be the ever declining Ant pay pre-covid. UBER was able to regularly cut Ant pay without doing too much damage to supply.

Regarding take rate, we don't need critical thinking, we know the actual numbers. We know exactly what UBER takes every quarter - it is publicly disclosed information (~21% range).
 

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I apologize, I missed your excellent and well-balanced post. I'll react to a couple of points.

I tried to acknowledge that UBER doesn't fire folks without at least an allegation of impropriety. We could argue whether their approach to adjudicating matters is ideal, but companies are often forced to play the role of judge and jury without perfect information (think of your star athlete put on leave while the team and league investigate allegations). Ideally, those matters would be handled in the appropriate venue, a court of law. But companies must decide how to approach the situation before the facts are fully brought to bear.

I think we agree that folks just want more and therefore feel underpaid, regardless of what the numbers say or what their skills demand. That's not pushback, that's just uninformed subjective opinion. The point of my post was to cut through the noise and look at actual pay when compared to alternative options for employment.

We definitely agree that the market, over longer periods, determines the value of one's skills. I say longer-term because perhaps UBER subsidized driver pay in early years with investor dollars as an incentive to bring them to the platform. Ergo, rates weren't paid directly in relation to the level of skill required, but total pay captured both output and incentives to get the marketplace flywheel spinning. Proof of this would be the ever declining Ant pay pre-covid. UBER was able to regularly cut Ant pay without doing too much damage to supply.

Regarding take rate, we don't need critical thinking, we know the actual numbers. We know exactly what UBER takes every quarter - it is publicly disclosed information (~21% range).
Hat tip for your also excellent post... lol

Quick question... I think you referred to this before - publicly disclosed information - where can I go to read that? I am interested in the information available to me because I can learn from it.
 

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Les Ants,

I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.

Linked is a New York Times piece that summarizes and attempts to discredit the 136 page Cornell piece that is also linked. The study was conducted using data from both UBER and Lyft. This is the most rigorous study I have seen on the topic and the methodologies are sound. It adjusts earnings in ways that I have been advocating for for some time.

For instance, it nets out the time that ants are running both apps, ie. if you are running both apps for an hour, it counts it as an hour, not two. This is a huge adjustment for the denominator. It also only includes incremental costs and excludes things like insurance, which the Ant would be paying for regardless. It also deducts depreciation due to the aging of the vehicle, which again would happen regardless of Anting. It includes depreciation from mileage (note that the diminution in value of a vehicle has two components - the age and the mileage). The most controversial exclusion is wait time when not actively driving or en route to a pickup. If you believe that time should be included, you can deduct $2.50 from the levels below.

After applying this thoughtful analysis, the researchers concluded that part-time Ants, which they peg as 85% of the population, make $23.25/hour AFTER expenses or $46,500 annually based on 40 hrs. a week for 50 weeks a year. Full-time Ants make $17.40/hour or $34,800 annually. Many recent college graduates are making between $39-$48k as illustrated by the table below.

For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated.


View attachment 605557

I worked my ass off and didn’t make half that plus I owe a ton of taxes and my circulation is shot forever


Toodles,

De La Creme
 
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