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My calculated net hourly pay after expenses is

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
X xl wav...
Hey gone think the border will open soon in Montreal. I heard 31st. Pax. Told me mid August. We want to go thier early sept 7 to 10 days
Been to Toronto a few times.
Oh comfort too. Be at this 7 years. It is not easy. I owe government every year no way around it. I dont do 1000 miles a week
What city do you work and you are saying you gross $57.15/hr?
 

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I am not going to give out anymore details you see here guys are working 7 days a week 150 rides for 3k weekly ..figure it out. Dont care about who believes or dont.
This site is toast on posting income on.
Telling anyone what I made was stupid I am pushing 60 IDFAF. but my expenses are high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I am not going to give out anymore details you see here guys are working 7 days a week 150 rides for 3k weekly ..figure it out. Dont care about who believes or dont.
This site is toast on posting income on.
Telling anyone what I made was stupid I am pushing 60 IDFAF. but my expenses are high.
You act like it's some guarded state secret. Either way, it's one datapoint vs. the entire 136-page empirical study.
 

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And where is the valuation of risk in this study?

Ant wipes out his car and is in the hospital for three months with a broken leg with no workers comp, no disability, and a totaled car with $2500 deductuble? What's the monetary value of that?

Ant gets carjacked and stabbed in the face? Monetary value of that?

Ant gets his car puked in but smell never comes out?

What is the value lost to employer Social Security contributions? Supplemental rideshare insurance riders? Workers comp? Death and disability insurance?

What is the value lost to wear and tear on vehicles due to the real world nature of rideshare?

They probably just assumed 1,000 miles of rideshare is exactly the same as 1,000 miles of touring Nantucket? People with no real world common sense (e.g. academics) believe this.

But most importantly, the free market says otherwise. Any occupation that overcompensates would be overrun with applicants to the point of almost zero turnover and lines out the door for any position that opens (as actually happens with union janitors in NYC).

Why does Uber have to spend one penny on advertising for drivers if said postions are overpaid?

Why is turnover so high for drivers? Because people hate easy money and being overpaid? Sure, whatever.

Your confirmation bias has gotten the better of you, Frankie. This is your blind spot, which is typical for most quants. You think all risk can be identified and quantified to a numeric value (if you bother to value it at all). But the real world it doesn't care what your numbers say, because the real world bats last.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
And where is the valuation of risk in this study?

Ant wipes out his car and is in the hospital for three months with a broken leg with no workers comp, no disability, and a totaled car with $2500 deductuble? What's the monetary value of that?

Ant gets carjacked and stabbed? Monetary value of that?

Ant gets his car puked in but smell never comes out?

What is the value lost to employer Social Security contributions, supplemental rideshare insurance, workers comp, death and disability insurance.

What is the value lost to wear and tear on vehicles due to the real world nature of rideshare?

They probably just assumed 1,000 miles of rideshare is exactly the same as 1,000 miles of touring Nantucket? People with no real world common sense (e.g. academics) believe this.

But most importantly, the free market says otherwise. Any occupation that overcompensates would be overrun with applicants to the point of almost zero turnover and lines out the door for any position that opens (as actually happens with union janitors in NYC).

Why does Uber have to spend one penny on advertising for drivers if said postions are overpaid?

Why is turnover so high for drivers? Because people hate easy money and being overpaid? Sure, whatever.

Your confirmation bias has gotten the better of you, Frankie. This is your blind spot, which is typical for most quants. You think all risk can be identified and quantified to a numeric value (if you bother to value it at all). But the real world it doesn't care what your numbers say, because the real world bats last.
A lot of good points here. I think workers comp is the biggest issue and it can be obtained through private insurers. How much do these things deduct hourly is the big question. A full time ant likely drives 2,000 or so hours a year, so for each $2,000 in expenses, you can deduct $1/hr. You also have to figure in benefits of things like flexibility of work hours.

I disagree with the second half of your post. I can't count the number of posts here, pre-covid, complaining about the excess supply of Ants. Covid combined with government incentives obviously turned that on its head. UBER and Lyft are now advertising to replenish all the lost drivers due to Covid. Turnover may be high, but I don't know how high it is relative to other low-skill positions, which is key.

I'm reporting what was found in the study and agreeing with the methodology. Is it perfect? No. Is it possible to put a dollar amount on every factor, good or bad? No. What is important is did they capture all of the primary drivers of income and costs and did they analyze it in a way that made sense? If so, this gives you a pretty good idea of income. I believe their methodology is the best I have seen on the subject. I'd be more than happy to look at other analysis.
 

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Covid combined with government incentives obviously turned that on its head.
Great examples of unknown and unquantifiable risks. A quote from page 64 of the study...

"Decomposition of P1: We would have liked to have spent more time handling the subtleties of P1 across time of day, but because of COVID, we found ourselves constrained. We plan to explore this topic in a subsequent report."

What is the monetary loss value of a COVID infection of a driver? A COVID fatality? An infected family member? What is the risk premium required to get drivers to drive despite risks of COVID?

These are not quantifiable today, much less two years ago before COVID even existed.

How would you quantify the risk if a new variant appears that evades vaccine anti-bodies?

Are ants overcompensated relative to drivers that are getting UI plus $300/wk to sit home until September?

Researchers have to use the data they have, not the data they want. So I guess I have to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there is no conflict of interest.

Oh but wait, I didn't see any conflict of interest disclosures in the study, so how do I know that any person on the research team hasn't gotten job offers or grants from Uber, Lyft, or any other gig company?

"Hey boys, we at Uber are funding a study to see just how good our drivers have got it. But first, let's all meet for dinner at Ruth's Chris to discuss parameters. Who's interested?"

But you know how that works better than us, don't you?
 
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Les Ants,

I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.

Linked is a New York Times piece that summarizes and attempts to discredit the 136 page Cornell piece that is also linked. The study was conducted using data from both UBER and Lyft. This is the most rigorous study I have seen on the topic and the methodologies are sound. It adjusts earnings in ways that I have been advocating for for some time.

For instance, it nets out the time that ants are running both apps, ie. if you are running both apps for an hour, it counts it as an hour, not two. This is a huge adjustment for the denominator. It also only includes incremental costs and excludes things like insurance, which the Ant would be paying for regardless. It also deducts depreciation due to the aging of the vehicle, which again would happen regardless of Anting. It includes depreciation from mileage (note that the diminution in value of a vehicle has two components - the age and the mileage). The most controversial exclusion is wait time when not actively driving or en route to a pickup. If you believe that time should be included, you can deduct $2.50 from the levels below.

After applying this thoughtful analysis, the researchers concluded that part-time Ants, which they peg as 85% of the population, make $23.25/hour AFTER expenses or $46,500 annually based on 40 hrs. a week for 50 weeks a year. Full-time Ants make $17.40/hour or $34,800 annually. Many recent college graduates are making between $39-$48k as illustrated by the table below.

For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated.


View attachment 605557




Toodles,

De La Creme
Yep.

I am an overpaid food delivery driver.

Took a while to figure out the best apps, region, strategy and tactics.

I care about expenses. Thus I calculate my profitability by dollars per mile, not dollars per hour. So, excluding wait time is not a problem for me.

Disregarding taxes seems to be a problem. Seems every single financial decision made my small businesses and large corporations focus on tax consequences. I understand why the authors did not include tax calculations; too much time spent digging into city, county and state regulations. Either lazy or money constraints.

By the way, drivers are required to provide expensive equipment not required by college graduates for W2 employment.

Plus, I am not carrying tens of thousands of dollars of student debt to get a low paying, entry level job.

Also, gig app workers are actually small businesses.

How many small business owners actually calculate their profit based on hours spent at the cash register?

At the end of the day, it is income, minus expenses, plus or minus tax ramifications.

Seems to me that the studies mentioned are useless and misdirected.

Trying to calculate gig app workers hourly rates compared to W2 jobs may have provided some with grant money, but the conclusions of the long winded paper seems ridiculous.

What is next, articles comparing plumbing or electrical contractors hourly profits compared to liberal arts graduates working in fast food restaurants because they can not find jobs in their field?

Seems to me the studies were a senseless use of trees and bandwidth.
 

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Do we have access to the information that Uber and Lyft have provided? How do we know that they didn't cherry pick the information so the study would give the results that they wanted?

Why shouldn't the drivers be paid well? Without the driver, there would be no Uber or Lyft.

Not having to go to college is not a justification for drivers to have lower pay than college graduates. Drivers have immense responsibilities that they are burdened with, mainly operating a vehicle and transporting their customers to their destination as safely as possible. Are you saying that the lives of the drivers and passengers aren't worth as much as they are being paid currently?
 

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I own my business many private rides too. Your math is tiring. To much college.
Full time ant 2000 hours per year.
Well let's try basic math avg full time uber ant 70 hours a week x 50 weeks = 3500 hours per year.
50 hours is 2500. Full time guys over work themselves in this business. I was that guy 4 years ago
 

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Les Ants,

I often hear a lot of complaints on here about what the Ants are earning. I'm here to dispel those myths using evidenced-based empirical research as opposed to the hit pieces run by often left-leaning news outlets.

Linked is a New York Times piece that summarizes and attempts to discredit the 136 page Cornell piece that is also linked. The study was conducted using data from both UBER and Lyft. This is the most rigorous study I have seen on the topic and the methodologies are sound. It adjusts earnings in ways that I have been advocating for for some time.

For instance, it nets out the time that ants are running both apps, ie. if you are running both apps for an hour, it counts it as an hour, not two. This is a huge adjustment for the denominator. It also only includes incremental costs and excludes things like insurance, which the Ant would be paying for regardless. It also deducts depreciation due to the aging of the vehicle, which again would happen regardless of Anting. It includes depreciation from mileage (note that the diminution in value of a vehicle has two components - the age and the mileage). The most controversial exclusion is wait time when not actively driving or en route to a pickup. If you believe that time should be included, you can deduct $2.50 from the levels below.

After applying this thoughtful analysis, the researchers concluded that part-time Ants, which they peg as 85% of the population, make $23.25/hour AFTER expenses or $46,500 annually based on 40 hrs. a week for 50 weeks a year. Full-time Ants make $17.40/hour or $34,800 annually. Many recent college graduates are making between $39-$48k as illustrated by the table below.

For a profession (Anting) that requires no education and very little skill, it appears that the Ants are being overcompensated.


View attachment 605557




Toodles,

De La Creme
Seems a misdirected study comparing apples and oranges.

Guessing a lot of grant money involved while no one involved was actually involved in day to day realities.

First off, seems nobody involved actually transported people or food.

Second off, paper prepared by students, not yet in the W2 environment.

Finally, who are you, and why are you hyping this paper?
 

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You act like it's some guarded state secret. Either way, it's one datapoint vs. the entire 136-page empirical study.
Lotta drivers earn outside the average and the mean.

A 136 page study without any authors mixing it up on the streets. Who gonna give it credence?

A useless paper, but guessing some academic department got paid a lot of money for a faulty statistical analysis.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I appreciate the lively discussion, but no one has fully addressed the thrust of the paper. If anyone believes the numbers are wrong, why? The numbers look pretty right to me using back of the envelope numbers. I can average $30/hr gross, so suggesting $7/hr of expenses is not absurd. Just because it was done by academics, or students, or non-drivers, or using Uber or Lyfts data, does not make it wrong.

Ive admitted it’s not perfect, but directionally this is the most rigorous and logical analysis I’ve seen.

Further, since I believe the number is reasonably close, I’m asking why the Ants believe they are underpaid. If a college grad is making $40k annually, an Ant making $40k annually does not scream underpaid to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
The study did not explicitly address DEAD MILES that accrue on the job. Many drivers drive a around empty a fair bit, or are staging their vehicle in a particular spot after a ride.
Sure, but the only incremental cost is some gas. Plus, the ant can write those miles off at $0.56/mile. If your vehicle gets 20 mph and gas is $3/gallon, the incremental cost is $0.15, so you are netting $0.41 per dead mile. Sure there is some depreciation - anyone know what a car depreciates on average per mile?

I just did the math using Carmax on a 2012 civic looking at the difference in value between 60k miles and 120k. Comes out to $0.05/mile. So, you are netting $0.36 that you can write off against income for each dead mile.
 

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are those studies comparing RS to a real career job?

Is that even possible?
 

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but no one has fully addressed the thrust of the paper. If anyone believes the numbers are wrong, why?
What I don't understand is what YOUR thrust is, Frankie. If Uber drivers are overpaid, then Dara has a fiduciary responsibility to the stakeholders to cut driver pay to market level, does he not?

So go for it, Uber. Cut driver pay 10%-20% and investors will be rolling in profits.

Just...do it!!!


But they won't.

Do you know why? Because Uber knows the numbers in this study are fake, and their compensation rates and driver numbers show it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
The thrust was two parts. 1. Do you agree with the earnings conclusion and there fore the methodology and 2. Assuming the earning numbers are correct, are Ants overpaid.

Uber has been cutting driver pay over the years. Again, Covid threw a wrench into everything. When things normalize, will UBER look to cut pay again? Have you already forgotten the ubiquitous too many ants posts pre-Covid?

My third question was if Ants are underpaid as everyone complains, what sort of salary should this profession commmand?
 
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