Uber Drivers Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
That's me. Thick as three planks. Dumb as a bag of hammers.

This is why.

I started driving in August 2014. Total number of trips just over 9,000. About 150,000kms on the clock. Rating is somewhere between 4.92 and 4.95, cancellation rate 5%, acceptance 59%. Number of 5=star ratings is four digits, first one being a 5, the next two being higher than 5 and the last being lower. Just under 6K in cash jobs, tips and gratuities. None of this money has been spent: the replacement of my car has to be part funded from somewhere. Please don't ask for a screenshot. Ii am ambivalent about what these numbers represent anyway because they all come at a cost. and I don't make stuff up. If you still doubt my credibility, I will respond to a PM from someone I trust with a screenshot and they can verify whether the above is true or not. When I started driving, rates were 30% higher than now, I had a full-time job in the not for profit/community sector as well as an income stream of royalties from publishing and the odd short term consultancy job overseas. Aside from the occasional issue with missing payments, no complaints about Uber during the honeymoon period. I had drunk from the green Kool Aid bottle labelled "Uber" like so many of us did. Even contemplated quitting my day job (the role was shrinking anyway and the best part of had been completed 18 months earlier) and driving Uber full time. That all changed with the first rate cut in April 2015, coming, as it did, with an idiotic email from Uber breathlessly telling drivers "in Detroit, when rates were reduced, driver incomes increased!". Namedropping an American city in a sad state of decline, with 27% unemployment and a population of 760,000 as if it comparable with Melbourne's reasonably sound economic and demographic metrics was a pathetic way of trying to hoodwink drivers. "Gee-willikers, those guys in Detroit must be doing real swell!" we were supposed to think whilst downing some suds and listening to Billy Joel.

A year into Ubering I was made redundant from my day job, stayed off benefits and reluctantly went full time. I guess that makes me some kind of insect. And then in May 2016, with 24 hours' notice via SMS, another 15% was wiped off rates. Despite applying for regular jobs and getting the odd interview, no change in my employment status other than a few hours' casual work per week teaching children with autism and dyslexia. Loved every minute of it. This second rate cut made Uber's business strategy crystal: a model built on low cost (to the pax), frequent usage that was no doubt modelled in Harvard or Silly Con Valley, completely devoid of the human factor. Medieval. And evil. Since year one, I declared my Uber income and got a massive tax bill of over 8K. Year two, lower earnings, less tax but a new requirement to pass through 12.5% GST. One day, back in February, whilst at Cremorne for something, I overheard one of the staff tell a driver they shouldn't believe everything they read on Uberpeople and then went looking for this forum, impressed to see its global nature and the sheer volume of stuff within. This Melbourne page had some good info, was lively and it was obvious that some of my anger at the way we are treated was shared. Even though the odd racist comment and the ad hominin attacks made me shake my head, I was no stranger to this stuff having been a volunteer moderator on an ABC political forum (long gone). And I was not going to let that get in the way a trying to work with others on a solution to the growing and very real complaints about lower earnings, higher costs and the way that Uber regards us "a basket of expendables". Voltaire's maxim "I may disagree with what you say but I defend your right to say it" is also something I kept in mind. Sometimes wish this was more widely understood...

In September last year, in response to a post regarding interest by a Fairfax journalist, Liam Mannix, in writing s story about Uber driver pay and conditions by Uberxzoom (hereafter referred to by a title that I think is more fitting, Generalissimo e10), I contacted the Generalissimo by PM, expressing my interest in participating in this. Liam then contacted me, two other folks here and was requested by Uber to contact two drivers they nominated "for a different perspective". Liam's questions were excellent, his professionalism spot on. He wasn't being one-sided in his approach and thankfully, by being so, Uber's attempts to spin a story their way backfired. The two nominated drivers were financially even WORSE OFF than the Uberpeople folks. However, we were all very disappointed when The Age would not publish the story, citing concerns about our need to retain anonymity. At least, that is what I concluded from responses from Liam and the Generalissimo. I then contacted the editor of The Age, Mark Forbes, to question why the story was pulled. I made mention of the fact that Uber was an advertiser on Fairfax radio and questioned whether this might have played a part in the decision. It is important to remember that newspapers are bleeding money but radio remains profitable and Fairfax, as a media group, may be very reluctant to upset an advertiser like Uber by publishing a negative story. Forbes responded by telling me he didn't even know Uber was an advertiser on 3AW and no, this was not the reason. He did say what was, no doubt an indicator of editorial privilege. He resigned several weeks later after a sexual harassment claim was made against him.

So, Generalissimo e10 and I continued to exchange PMs and emails to write our own story, with some great data from Bob28 and input from others. A fair bit of work was involved in putting this together and I started thinking about who it could be shopped to. Obviously, not the Herald Sun. A newspaper that reduces complexity to baiting slogans, goading the reader to fulminate and chuck stuff at the TV is not the sort of venue for such a piece. The Guardian Australia? The pretty trashy Daily Mail Online? The solid but little-read The Saturday Paper? Maybe all three and then some. Well, the Generalissimo was not a font of wisdom on this so I wrote a fair chunk, sent it to him and then he wrote his bit (which subsequently required a lot of editing but, hey, no problem, right? I mean, we all have relative strengths that we bring to the table and I can get my head around language pretty easily, right? And that is how you build a cooperative relationship, right?) but it never went to any news outlet. Just stopped there. OK, let it go because into November and December, I noticed growing calls for action against Uber on here. Usually from people with the same righteous anger many of us feel about pay and conditions. These, however, were happening IN PUBLIC and were in danger of resulting in a pitchfork and flaming torch group of drivers rocking up to Gwynne St demanding better pay and conditions to an office that knew they were coming well in advance.* That is why I posted a longish post in the Uber Union? thread advising a different approach. Did the Japanese Imperial forces telegraph their intentions to attack Pearl Harbour to the Americans? Weren't Eisenhower and Montgomery enormously successful in keeping the D-Day Invasion plans and forces a secret from the Nazis? Did General Giap let the French at Dien Bien Phu know he had hundreds of men pulling artillery pieces up impossible slopes and digging tunnels towards the French trenches in 1954? No. Secrecy and security were major factors in those victories. Go guerrilla. Do the unexpected. Keep it amongst yourselves. Moreover, even with dozens of drivers participating in any such action, the churn of drivers means that Uber could simply take the attitude: you are all expendable, deactivate and wait a day because there will be the same number of new drivers to replace them coming through the doors. Turning up as a mob at Cremorne and, at best, being able to vocalise what you want will make you feel better, give the Uber staff something to talk about during their breaks, that security guard guy something to do (God, he must be bored out of his scone) and Denman a story to tell when he gets to the pub about 4.00pm but it won't create change that is enforced and legally binding on Uber that results in better pay and conditions.

I should add that just prior to all this, I was pleased to go to the pub meet up of drivers in Richmond. Good to meet the guys who were there, have a laugh and, with the exception of the guy kept yammering away about how everything was "the ants" fault (like there was some grand conspiracy by swarthy men to take money out of his pocket), I was glad to have met the REAL people behind the avatars. I had also had two contact with an ALP staffer who told me that the TWU was opposed to Uber because they represented taxi drivers instead. I am happy to be corrected but I reckon you could count on one hand the number of taxi drivers who are TWU members. To test this, I contacted the TWU via email. No response. OK, that seems to be sending a clear message: we're not interested. As of last week, this situation has changed and after discussion with a TWU organiser, I have been told what needs to happen in order for Uber drivers to become members. PM me if you care to know the name of the TWU organiser to contact and what is needed for them to sign up Uber drivers.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
More than one UP Melbourne poster has raised the topic of the unionisation of drivers and many more of us have detailed what it is like to try and make a full time living or a part time income supplement. I have done both and wanted to start doing something practical about organising with others here and elsewhere to, as a primary goal, get better pay and conditions for drivers. And by practical, I mean lasting, irreversible, legitimate. Taking class action has also been mentioned many times and I have made repeated references to how successful these have been in the U.S and UK. An African pax, himself a former Uber driver, told me of the class action that was already underway by 80 drivers addressing deactivation. A lawyer from Maurice Blackburn also told me of their interest in considering a class action but that conversation stopped at specifics. Class action is not a Ron Burgundy catchphrase. It requires considerable time and either partial funding from the litigants or the legal firm needs to be so sure of a win that they will take it on a no-win, no fee basis. Moreover, the essential issue with all successful class actions against Uber by drivers is employment status as a sub-set of conditions, not pay. Therefore, engaging with other drivers to form a union seemed the way forward. Now, the concept of unions (i.e. labour organised legally to promote and protect the interests of the people who work in a chosen field(s)) ought to well understood but, as I learned, is not. Perhaps because that understanding is tainted by gangs like the CFMEU, thieves and liars like the former HSU or stand-over thugs like the former Painters and Dockers. Or just a lack of knowledge by people who have never been union members, never voted on electing delegates and executive members, never voted on taking industrial action and never participated in the same. Which, I think I am reasonable in guessing, would be most Uber drivers. There was so much discussion of this on this forum and the belief that we are all being exploited has passed from being an angry feeling into a plain fact. My politics are firmly of the Left. And since being part of the Uberverse, have become more so. Which is why I don’t vote Labour or Greens. There is a world of difference between trying to live by and believing in socialist, humanitarian principles and Australian party politics. The dismal view of human nature that underpins Conservative politics is one I reject and the destructive nature of capitalism (and its apparent “triumph”) is probably going to bugger everything up. In a future scenario where the earth is little more than a toxic ball in space that may or may not have us on it, you won’t be able to point a mutated digit at the socialists and say “it’s all their fault!” Having been a member of a number of unions, voted for and against industrial action, elected delegates and having mates in unions (one being the State Secretary of a strong, high-profile union and a bloody good bass player to my not-as-bloody-good drumming), I wanted to make the formation of a union happen but was prepared to accept that it just may not because of the difficulties in organising in an environment where the company actively works to prevent drivers from communicating with each other.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Discussions began with the Generalissimo and with others. One key member of the forum made up the trio of us that set the ball rolling. He can "out" himself if he wishes to. His contribution to the process was great and he was, as I believed the three of us were, embarking on an effort to make a difference to driver pay and conditions. I am grateful for what he did and the passion he continues to show. Thoroughly decent bloke. Now those efforts seem quixotic. I contacted the ACTU and, subsequently, FWA. By January of this year, there was a lot of communication between the Generalissimo and myself about forming a union (little did I know how little the Generalissimo knew what this means in practice) and work began. The Generalissimo wanted me to edit a letter he wrote to FWA. It was about as business-like in content and style as a complaint letter from Indignant of Tunbridge Wells and mixed text I had written for the non-published story with data from Bob28 with a bunch of tautologies and non-sequiturs. I am well used to editing text (yeah? well, why don't you edit this, you gimp, and cut to the chase??) having written professionally and wanted to help. Always. However, I didn't see the point of writing to FWA. A letter from you or me to the FWA goes into the tray that sits between the In and Out trays labelled That's Nice….This body exists to deal with matters of dispute between employers and employees and contractors who are legally constituted, registered with FWA and who make a formal, written submission in accordance with their required processes and forms. But I didn't question it, just began the process of editing it into something which sounded less "poor bugger me" and more professional. In the next couple of weeks, there was more communication back and forth but despite trying several times to arrange a meeting with the Generalissimo, none could be arranged. In fact, over the best part of a year, none could be arranged. Pretty sure that letter, finished a month ago, in the service of the Generalissimo, has not been sent. Finally, a meeting was arranged early in Feb. Prior to that, it had been agreed (so I thought) that I would draft a flyer that would be used to inform drivers and invite them to join the ****.** (see text below) Yes, the **** had the digital architecture in place (still does) but not much of the human architecture. In early Feb, all I could see by way of posts on it were from October 2016 and not a lot of members. This is not a criticism of it or of the Generalissimo. The fact that its existence was largely unknown is no one's fault. The fact that I drafted the attached text, sent it to the Generalissimo and gave him a hard copy, asking for his comments/suggestions and once a final edit was agree on, it would be branded as badged as **** and that I would then use some of my Uber million$ pay for an initial run of 1,000 photocopies to be made and would subsequently contact some of the UP members who were keen to do something to join me in handing these out to drivers at servos, places where drivers congregate on weekend nights (and wear "the opportunity cost") in an attempt to get a minimum of 300 verifiable members of the **** is well known to the Generalissimo and, thankfully, the third member of our little (it is spelt l.i.t.t.l.e, OK?) group. The fact that he did nothing with the draft for three weeks, despite being asked to finalise it by me a couple of times before telling me that he wasn't going to, that flyers don't work and that he was not going to go out and do what I (and hopefully others) was prepared to do, is not well known. And it ought to be. So, what I thought was a joint effort to engage drivers-in real time, with a "how are you doing, mate? Are you an Uber driver?" before handing them a flyer and spending some time talking to them about their situation-to put faces to this mysterious **** and increase members-was not going to happen because the Generalissimo said so. It was a grand waste of my time because the Generalissimo revealed that rather than consult or engage, his approach is "my way or the highway" and what appear to be belated efforts to do so here have no basis in democratic process. Better to sit behind a keyboard than meet real people. Better to dictate (and, my godfather, did we not see a Dictation Lesson over the whole, self-congratulatory-Monday-offline-in-support-of-another-protest-by-taxis-in-response-to- a-brain-fart?) and call doubters "scabs" (hey, you know what, most reasonable people would NEVER us this word and those who do are usually the attack dogs of the worst type of union-so where does that leave anyone who glibly throws it around like they got a right?) than to do what I was suggesting. Organise. Democratically. Meet other drivers (I had identified a good MCC-run venue in the city which I had been to meetings in before and was planning on setting up a meeting via PM). Vote on a REDACTED (because it is a union-specific term which despite my complete disenchantment with how this sorry business has unfolded, I will not use publicly as it is key to a strategy of future potential industrial action). Vote on an executive and organisers and possibly delegates. Mentioning voting requires me to state something unequivocally: at no time was I interested in being a member of the executive of the **** or any other "union". If I was nominated for a position, I would decline. I would rather serve than lead but serve in the knowledge that I was serving a commonly-agreed, democratically decided set of goals and objectives than be a lackey to a dictatorship. After all, serving as a lackey with little or no say in how things are done simply mirrors what it is like to be a full-time Uber driver. I have told the Generalissimo this. As the wheels were falling off this worsening situation, the Generalissimo had the chance to pause and think: maybe I was a l.i.t.t.l.e wrong, maybe I could be doing things better, acknowledge that it is better to work with others rather than against them when you have common cause. And hey, if Homebrand Taxi and some other eejits want to hand out flyers and waste their time, let 'em do it. Costs the Generalissimo nothing and it means someone else does the meeting and pressing the flesh work on best-earner weekend nights and hey, maybe it WILL result in increased membership and better information flow to more people. But no. Better to crash and burn your own CGI car in the comfort of Total Conviction That I Am Right than be seen to be "weak" by admitting you might just have really put the two guys who were prepared to work hard with you permanently off. Funny thing is, until recently, the Generalissimo decided that the text of the flyer was good enough to be posted on the **** site but not good enough to actually hand to a flesh and blood person. I can't even begin to try and figure that one out.

In addition to this, after my discussions with the ACTU (two), FWA (two) and my good union boss mate (multiple), the path to the creation of a legal entity capable of either direct negotiation with Uber (backed by a sufficient number of drivers who have VOTED on the content and nature of these negotiations: it was agreed on an absolute minimum of 300-call it The Spartan Standard, if you like) or bringing Uber to FWA as a complainant LEGALLY REGISTERED with FWA, the Generalissimo rejected taking the necessary approach to achieve this via both FWA's requirements and as a democratic body. Too…..just too… you know, not what the Generalissimo wanted to do. You know, just TOO everything, really. So he killed this as well. Better to have a kingdom of zeroes and ones than face your opponent directly from a bargaining position of real strength.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I apologise for taking your time and bandwidth with this. However, from the six UP members I PMed to join the **** (until the Generalissimo ordered me to stop, citing something about how the **** forum “wasn’t ready” to receive UP members migrating there) to those who, like Footscrazy, have similar experience to mine, I feel obliged to explain why I will not participate in any further effort to properly unionise WITH men and women who really deserve better. Alternative courses of action are open but they require other folks to take a lead (as mentioned earlier, the TWU is one and I am happy to hand over what I have been told by them needs to happen for us to take action through the TWU via PM) and I hope are better handled than this shabby business. I don’t intend to post much, if anything here anymore and prefer to communicate via PM. I would never tell you what to do out of basic respect. To be part of what already is or something else or do nothing. That is your absolute right. Just know I walk away from all this as a really stupid driver.


*Hello, Uber Young Person reading this. We know you are there. You have probably never been a member of a union and definitely didn’t study anything about unions at university. It is not your fault you are historically illiterate either. After all, Ms Crabapple was a pretty disinterested teacher when you had her for History in Year 8 and then again in Year 9 and by Year 9 you’d discovered boys/girls and found equations and formulas easier to understand than people. Which is why you now work for Uber. Please don’t wait until one day when you are 82 and a Nexus-6 unit arrives at your apartment in Mega City One to take you by Hovercar to watch The Running Man live to develop a conscience about the fact that we are all being screwed by your unsustainable pricing and nasty contracting arrangements. Do it now. It is as wrong now as it will be in 2073 and we won’t be around then to remind you of that fact. Become a whistleblower. Create a fake UMail account and email a protest at driver rates of pay being $10 per hour or less with a graph comparing am Uber drivers’ nett hourly rates with those of McDonalds, Hungry Jacks and 7-11. Then give us the keys to the company intranet and grab a box of popcorn. Uber’s Greyballs falling out of Travis’ skull and the revelations of the senior woman engineer in SF point the way. Free that data! Reach out across the digital divide and be a decent human being!


**Text of flyer


Rideshare Drivers Melbourne: It Is Time To Unite



Join Ride Share Drivers United (****)























Rideshare services in Melbourne commenced at the end of 2013. Since that time:









1.The base rates of pay for drivers using the Uber platform have FALLEN by 30%. At a base rate of $1 per km and 0.30c per minute, Melbourne has the CHEAPEST Ubers in Australia. These reductions in fares happen with 24 hours notice and are never explained to drivers. Even many passengers are aware that Uber Melbourne is so cheap as to be completely unsustainable for drivers.

















2.Uber has INCREASED the commission it takes from us from 20% t0 25%

















3.While GoCatch collects the GST payable on each fare from drivers, Uber does not. This means that since August 2015, all Uber drivers are required to pay 12.5% GST to the Australian Tax Office as well as pay income tax on earnings

















4.An increasing number of drivers find themselves working longer and longer hours to make a living while also having to pay lease or rental fees for cars leased and rented through companies such as Splend. The amounts drivers have to pay for a lease, in addition to fuel, tax compliance and surcharges for driving over 1,000km per week make hourly earnings less than $10: this is WELL BELOW the minimum wage in Australia

















Ride Share Drivers United (****) has been formed by concerned drivers who are seeking to campaign for the interests of members on these and other issues. Our objective is to improve pay and conditions for rideshare drivers in Victoria. We are NOT affiliated with Uber, GoCatch or any vehicle leasing or rental company, the taxi industry or any other company or organisation which seeks to profit from our labour. We are independent.









We invite you to join us to participate in campaigns to improve driver pay and conditions and to make the public aware of the poor conditions and rates of pay we are currently working under.









Many people think that rideshare companies are seeking to “destroy” the taxi industry. This is not the case. The business model of rideshare companies requires these companies to create a new form of transport which sits at a price point between public transport and taxis and limousines. This is why ridesharing has become so popular and is so frequently used in Melbourne. It is also why we, as drivers, are in the situation of providing a service which many, many passengers say is “better than a taxi” for a price that is usually more than 50% LESS THAN A TAXI.









Join us! Membership of **** is currently free. Please use the links below to sign up and receive news and information about forthcoming actions to promote the needs and interests of members.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,932 Posts
A union's primary form of protest is to strike. A strike would create surge. Surge would create scabs who would take your fares while you were left waiting in the coffee shop to see how the strike works out.

I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am wondering if you have figured out a better way to organize things.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Organised labour withdrawing its labour or making it clear its intention to do so with the backing of a majority of members (and those member number representing enough of a critical mass to impact negatively on the other side) if (a) negotiations are not entered into or (b) those negotiations to do result in some or all of the objectives of labour being met is how it is done. It is hard to achieve when we are talking about independent contractors BUT there are now enough examples of drivers successfully organising to make it possible here. Without legitimacy (i.e. a legal status) and without the forums to do it (described above as being either direct negotiation or via an industrial arbitration body with enforceable powers) you don't have many options.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
I'm ready to go any length, against uber, without any fear of deactivation,
but please stop having a go at each other, as you guys would create unnecessary confusion among the legitimate justice seeking drivers.

No one knows what happened behind the scenes, who is right, who is wrong.

Not setting a good example here on public forum, guys.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,084 Posts
Homebrand Taxi that is without a doubt the best ever post I have seen on this forum. Covers a lot of ground but does it incisively and without malice. Thank you for writing it. Would love to respond more eruditely but in the face of that post it's nigh well impossible

EDIT: I just noticed a link at the bottom of this thread called "View ignored content". One guess who I'm ignoring. Wowee is all I can say about his responses.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,724 Posts
Hi tothe member who wrote this. I highly commendon you on the extended articles and the time you took to write it!!!! I want to make a few points to you. I despise Unions,in my past20 years of work life in various industries the union/s have done nothing for me. just a bunch of self protected individuals who protect mebers and do agreements with unions behind closed doors. this doesnt work for me. as far as been a so called independant contarctor for Uber,I know what i signed up for. I will not form part of any union or anything that appears to be union like. I know what i sign and I am aware of what Uber is all about.I choose to drive and be connected to the Uber platform and its self rules and regulations. I choose to do what i want and not be dictated by entities. If drivers choose to sue Uber that is their choice and it wont be mine. last final word I say is choose what you view as good for yourself and choose accordingly.

Cheers
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,847 Posts
Ok, first of all its Clarke Forbes not Mark Forbes...
And secondly.. Our government is bringing in hundreds of thousands of desperate people from third world countries every year... To them the prospect of earning $5 per hour let alone $10 is amazing and uber knows this and will exploit them... So the reality is this, thanks for trying but nothing is going to change for the better because uber has a LIMITLESS supply of drivers.
The only way it could improve is with government regulation and we all know thats not even in the legislation. Its going to be a free market for all which will make current rates seem like a dream when that comes...
Thanks for trying but like I said, don't burn yourself out for a lost cause... And HBT is a classic example of a huge amount of is time WASTED FOR NOTHING!!!
Use uber to get by until you find a job and then when you do go to PM and slap Sara in the face!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,035 Posts
I saw a good video of herding cats! Probably easier than unionising Uber drivers, since we are a diverse lot!

Ok, first of all its Clarke Forbes not Mark Forbes...
And secondly.. Our government is bringing in hundreds of thousands of desperate people from third world countries every year... To them the prospect of earning $5 per hour let alone $10 is amazing and uber knows this and will exploit them... So the reality is this, thanks for trying but nothing is going to change for the better because uber has a LIMITLESS supply of drivers.
The only way it could improve is with government regulation and we all know thats not even in the legislation. Its going to be a free market for all which will make current rates seem like a dream when that comes...
Thanks for trying but like I said, don't burn yourself out for a lost cause... And HBT is a classic example of a huge amount of is time WASTED FOR NOTHING!!!
Use uber to get by until you find a job and then when you do go to PM and slap Sara in the face!
You can always identify Sara from the long line of people queuing up in front of her face!
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,671 Posts
I despise Unions,in my past20 years of work life in various industries the union/s have done nothing for me. just a bunch of self protecte..
My most recent practical experience with unions was working as a plant operator out west on construction.
Non union site. $40 an hour flat rate 12 hoursa day 7 days a week.

Union site doing same iob.
$40 an hour base rate. Time and half for next 2 hours after 7.6 hours. Doubletime after that.
Doubletime most of saturday and all day sunday. Plus $5 an hour site allowance every hour. (So it averaged out to about $70 an hour)

So in my experience unions are better, not some piss weak white collar or feminist nurse union, we all know they are shit, but a proper union.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top