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How should the compensation issue be resolved

  • Driver promoted regulation/restrictions on market acess

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Ants, I feel all of the frustration from the ants stemming from pay rates and I do believe pay is too low to be profitable in the long run. I would like to have a thoughtful conversation around this topic instead of ranting with system 1 knee-jerk commentary about simply raising rates as if that is the panacea to all of our problems. I would like to take a system 2 approach that considers all of the forces involved in this fascinatingly complex topic. There are at least four approaches by which this problem could be solved (and I'd love to hear thoughts on others): 1) UBER takes a top-down approach and dictates higher rates through fiat; 2) we allow market forces to work and driver pay will naturally find the right level through the invisible hand of price discovery; 3) Government dictated interventions around minimum wage and other regulations; 4) taking a page from the cab industry book by restricting the supply of drivers through medallions or other means.

Now, Frankie is a free-market guy, so I tend to err on the side of allowing market forces to work their magic. The issue with this approach is that it can take some time. A decree from the powers-that-be at UBER is instantaneous and those types of strongman tactics can be appealing to some.

I will start with one major issue and allow the ants to begin discussing their favorite related topics. I will also chime in with additional analysis as the thread progresses.

Too many ants. Most economics can be boiled down to supply and demand and we currently find ourselves in a situation where the supply of drivers is outstripping the demand. We must consider what forces will exert themselves to bring this equation into balance. I will begin by examining the forces that may constrain or reduce supply. I believe there is really only a certain supply of folks who would ever choose to pursue this profession and the better the economy, the more attractive other options become thereby shrinking the potential talent pool. Certain sociodemographic characteristics serve to constrain the potential applicant pool: not many women choose to drive for various reasons; anyone without a driver's license cannot drive; the elderly and or disabled are not part of the driver pool; the list goes on and on. So I do believe (outside of issues discussed below) that there is a finite pool of potential industry workers.

I listened to a recode/decode podcast yesterday where Kara Swisher interviewed Dara and he is keenly aware that UBER must compete for ants not only with Lyft, but with other substitutable jobs both in transportation and other industries. Furthermore, given that at current rates, this is not a profitable endeavor long-term, you will have ants leaving the industry after doing the calculation. This is still a relatively nascent industry so there are plenty of folks in the potential driver pool that get lured into the business. It takes time to work through the inventory of potential drivers that enter and exit the business after having come to understand the economics. But allowing this process to work itself out naturally takes time and patience. Folks enter and exit businesses in diverse industries constantly - it's the backbone of our capitalist society and is pretty efficient at allocating capital to the most productive means. Once the supply of drivers is reduced through these avenues, UBER will be forced to raise pay to lure folks back. One must trust the process and trust that long-term, folks will act in their best economic interests and that the market will reach equilibrium.

I would hope equilibrium is found at a higher level than where rates stand today, but there is no guarantee. We must understand that the barriers to entry in this industry are very slim and the service we provide, while much appreciate by pax, is not creating much value. We are not partners at a white-shoe law firm drafting complex M&A transaction docs. In a capitalist society, we must respect people's free will to transaction privately on their own terms. No one is forcing a company to pay the partner $1,000/hr to draft a purchase and sale agreement, the company is doing it because they believe it is worth the cost. We cannot simply dictate the amount someone should pay for our services, we must allow for a mutually agreed upon figure. The issue is that UBER does not allow for bargain between parties but must set a single clearing price that attempts to balance the supply and demand equations. I have thought deeply about how UBER could attempt to allow for a freer ability to bargain, but do not have an elegant solution. In a way, the stratification of the tiers of service is a step in that direction.

Next we need to think about what forces could increase supply. There is a famous quote that is often attributed to P.T Barnum which says "There's a sucker born every minute." If you believe that, you may believe that there is an unlimited supply of drivers willing to take the wheel for meager compensation. Beyond that, we should consider other forces that may increase driver supply like immigration, new folks entering the workforce, increase in rates/driver pay, economic weakness eliminating or making alternative employment options fewer and less attractive. There may just be a nearly unlimited supply of drivers, but only time will tell.

Ants, I look forward to your contributions.

Toodles,

Frankie
 

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I think the market will sort itself out, at least until the gooberment meddles like they did with taxis, limos, buses, trains, etc.

There was an article this week about a guy using vans to move groups from DART stations to jobs further south, because Uber was too spendy.

Yep Dart is just plain awful. Every time I look in one of their buses it is empty, wonder why.

To try it out, one day I took a bus to the rail station. Of course how Dart has it setup the bus arrives to the rail 2 minutes after the train comes, so I am stuck waiting at the rail for 20 minutes. The bus I was on was making good time so he could have easily arrived before the train. What does the driver do? He waits at one of the stops so he doesn't arrive early.

I feel sorry for anybody that has to rely on public transit in DFW and I feel sorry for the taxpayers like me who get to support it.

Ants, I look forward to your contributions
Hate to say it but I think the government needs to step in. The idea of making everybody an independent contractor is ludicrous. It is already starting to happen.

 

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Hate to say it but I think the government needs to step in. The idea of making everybody an independent contractor is ludicrous. It is already starting to happen. [URL unfurl="true" said:
I don't understand the fascination with the idea that somehow making ants employees would fix all problems. What problems does it solve? There are plenty of full-time positions that pay less than UBER and have zero benefits. I wrote an intellectually stimulating piece on this topic to be found here:

 

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I don't understand the fascination with the idea that somehow making ants employees would fix all problems. What problems does it solve? There are plenty of full-time positions that pay less than UBER and have zero benefits. I wrote an intellectually stimulating piece on this topic to be found here:

Back when Uber was treating it's "partners" with respect, I would have agreed with you. Not anymore. They are really sticking it to the drivers and I don't see any end in sight. They will just keep signing up new ants which they can easily dispose of.
 

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Back when Uber was treating it's "partners" with respect, I would have agreed with you. Not anymore. They are really sticking it to the drivers and I don't see any end in sight. They will just keep signing up new ants which they can easily dispose of.
What don't you agree with? What problems would the switch from contractor to employee solve? You act like every Jimmy and Joe at McDonalds makes $100/hour with full benefits, 401k with matching, health, dental, vision, etc. All they have is a minimum wage guarantee, a uniform, and a work schedule that rotates.
 

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What don't you agree with? What problems would the switch from contractor to employee solve? You act like every Jimmy and Joe at McDonalds makes $100/hour with full benefits, 401k with matching, health, dental, vision, etc. All they have is a minimum wage guarantee, a uniform, and a work schedule that rotates.
What don't you agree with? What problems would the switch from contractor to employee solve? You act like every Jimmy and Joe at McDonalds makes $100/hour with full benefits, 401k with matching, health, dental, vision, etc. All they have is a minimum wage guarantee, a uniform, and a work schedule that rotates.
Because Uber would actually have to think about who they hire instead of just any nimrod hitting accept on an app. They would think twice before firing someone because a customer decided they didn't want to pay a fare and file a false report. There would be other protections an employee would have that a contractor doesn't.
 

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Because Uber would actually have to think about who they hire instead of just any nimrod hitting accept on an app. They would think twice before firing someone because a customer decided they didn't want to pay a fare and file a false report. There would be other protections an employee would have that a contractor doesn't.
Those guarantees seem minor when compared to the hassles of employment. The major reason many folks choose this profession is because of the freedom to make one's own hours. If you would like to be an employee of a business, you should certainly pursue that elsewhere. Don't impose restrictions on others because you personally would prefer a few inconsequential improvements. What guarantees does a McDonald's employee have? They can be fired at any time.
 

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Independent contracting is fine but I think the state should get involved in setting a minimum/mile that is fair in regards to rideshare. If you are paying peanuts then you are costing the federal government and tax payers money. In other words the tax payers end up subsidizing the low wages via food stamps, Medicare, etc. Amazon was shamed into paying their employees a living wage because workers were forced to be on government aid. Leave it to greedy corporations and they would get away with murder if they could. Gig work threatens a race to the bottom economy and should be regulated to insure fairness to all. We have yet to see the costs in deaths (Suicides + Accidents), pollution, congestion caused by the rideshare economy. Capitalism is not a perfect system and needs to be regulated in some industries to restrict exploitation.
 

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There may just be a nearly unlimited supply of drivers, but only time will tell.
I fear that Uber drivers are similar to Indian H1B Visas in the IT field... There's always an H1B who will take less pay than you... And there's always a MBA in the FP&A Dept whose model will recommend trying out the cheaper guy.

Unfortunately, I guaran-damn-tee there's a huge population of otherwise unemployable people in Dallas who only need access to a 10 year old vehicle and a driver's license, who will be happy working 10hrs for $100 gross. Listen to the stories from pax about how horrid other Ants are... And watch for the guy in the dirty Nissan or CDJR vehicle who passes you doing 20mph over the speed limit with the Uber app suctioned to his windshield. The 30% off destination mode in other cities is just to test if they can cut rates by that much and still have drivers. The answer is yes they can.
 

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Independent contracting is fine but I think the state should get involved in setting a minimum/mile that is fair in regards to rideshare. If you are paying peanuts then you are costing the federal government and tax payers money. In other words the tax payers end up subsidizing the low wages via food stamps, Medicare, etc. Amazon was shamed into paying their employees a living wage because workers were forced to be on government aid. Leave it to greedy corporations and they would get away with murder if they could. Gig work threatens a race to the bottom economy and should be regulated to insure fairness to all. We have yet to see the costs in deaths (Suicides + Accidents), pollution, congestion caused by the rideshare economy. Capitalism is not a perfect system and needs to be regulated in some industries to restrict exploitation.
1) how should the government determine the correct rate of pay?
2) how is a company like Lyft greedy because they dont want to lose a BILLION dollars next year. If you made positive income last year, it appears you are the greedy one.
 

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If you look around among many other jobs, careers, professions, and businesses, you'll find two groups:

Those who earn better than average, including some who earn a LOT better than average. They almost always choose the independent contractor option, because it pays better, and puts the contractor in absolute control of their tax situation, and gives the worker the one thing he craves and demands: Economic Freedom. This is the equality of opportunity group. Regardless of what anyone says, or reads, these are the movers and shakers, industry leaders, the HUDIC folk. They set records, and then break them again.

And a larger group that earn an average income, as well as some that earn MUCH LESS than average, for a long laundry list of reasons. This groups wants EVERYONE to be a W-2 wage and salary earner. They want the nanny state to make the hind teat of life more palatable. This is the equality of outcomes group. They do not occupy any positions of substantial and meaningful leadership in any industry, other than government, where living evidence that Idiocracy is not fiction can be found, especially at the local levels.

I remember my first year in the business world. The leading producer in my company earned $250,000, which sounded like a mountain of money to me. He gave speeches at meetings about how he did it. Later, my manager told me that I should ignore those speeches because he was lying about how he did it. As Sun Tzu wrote "All warfare is based on deception."

I have since found out this to be true, in almost every company, in every industry I've delved into (which is many, because of the nature of my daytime activity). The guy earning $250,000 wasn't some deity, he was just the biggest fish in a small pond. There were guys then, as there are today, earning $30,000,000+ per year, in the same occupation, with other companies. They don't give speeches, either. They are too busy making money.

When you're good at something, and you're smart, you keep how you do that to yourself. Flash in the pan noobs brag, and then wonder why their secret sauce is now on every dinner table, without compensation. Loose lips sink ships, so to say.

The day that I'm forced into another W-2 position for a part-time gig is the day I quit driving rideshare forever.
 

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1) how should the government determine the correct rate of pay?
2) how is a company like Lyft greedy because they dont want to lose a BILLION dollars next year. If you made positive income last year, it appears you are the greedy one.
1) There have been suggestions and probably need an in-depth study of how gig companies operate. Then the federal or state governments should set a minimum...much like they do with minimum wage. As the situation stands the government is seeing zero income from this modern day sweat shop operation in sheep's clothing....From fulltime rideshare drivers or the companies themselves. I think someone made a comparison between todays gig fares and historically what taxi companies charged. I think the last time prices were this low adjusting for inflation was in the 60's. Do your research...Google it.
2) As I mentioned income from this type of work is a mirage. After you deduct expenses and depreciation you are basically exchanging asset for upfront cash. Your sweat is FOC. Yes there are people driving cash paid beaters but most are new with monthly payments. Eventually people catch on....and quit.
 

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1) There have been suggestions and probably need an in-depth study of how gig companies operate. Then the federal or state governments should set a minimum...much like they do with minimum wage. As the situation stands the government is seeing zero income from this modern day sweat shop operation in sheep's clothing....From fulltime rideshare drivers or the companies themselves. I think someone made a comparison between todays gig fares and historically what taxi companies charged. I think the last time prices were this low adjusting for inflation was in the 60's. Do your research...Google it.
2) As I mentioned income from this type of work is a mirage. After you deduct expenses and depreciation you are basically exchanging asset for upfront cash. Your sweat is FOC. Yes there are people driving cash paid beaters but most are new with monthly payments. Eventually people catch on....and quit.
Government dictated pricing does not guarantee increased pay for the ants unless the supply of ants is also constrained through government mandate. Government pricing floors would increase costs and decrease pax demand. Without a limit on drivers, more drivers would enter the market to take advantage of the increased pricing. So you will have more ants chasing fewer rides. I assume your answer to that is to now have the government limit the number of ants, correct? Should the government kick ants off the platform? How would they decide who gets to stay on - star rating? Tenure/seniority? Auction off medallions? How does the government choose the right number of ants when most ants don't work full-time and may just decide to not drive for a month or two? How do they balance supply and demand given those dynamics?
 

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You seem to be a smart guy. Take the lead and come up with a solution. We need smart people like you to unite drivers. Lets start in Texas and create a United Rideshare Drivers Union right here in Dallas. We as a combined force can make moves in the right direction (negotiate minimums/mile, etc) . Just go to the lots in DFW and you will have drivers falling over each other to sign up.

Government dictated pricing does not guarantee increased pay for the ants unless the supply of ants is also constrained through government mandate. Government pricing floors would increase costs and decrease pax demand. Without a limit on drivers, more drivers would enter the market to take advantage of the increased pricing. So you will have more ants chasing fewer rides. I assume your answer to that is to now have the government limit the number of ants, correct? Should the government kick ants off the platform? How would they decide who gets to stay on - star rating? Tenure/seniority? Auction off medallions? How does the government choose the right number of ants when most ants don't work full-time and may just decide to not drive for a month or two? How do they balance supply and demand given those dynamics?
You seem to be a smart guy. Take the lead and come up with a solution. We need smart people like you to unite drivers. Lets start in Texas and create a United Rideshare Drivers Union right here in Dallas. We as a combined force can make moves in the right direction (negotiate minimums/mile, etc) . Just go to the lots in DFW and you will have drivers falling over each other to sign up.
 

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You seem to be a smart guy. Take the lead and come up with a solution. We need smart people like you to unite drivers. Lets start in Texas and create a United Rideshare Drivers Union right here in Dallas. We as a combined force can make moves in the right direction (negotiate minimums/mile, etc) . Just go to the lots in DFW and you will have drivers falling over each other to sign up.


You seem to be a smart guy. Take the lead and come up with a solution. We need smart people like you to unite drivers. Lets start in Texas and create a United Rideshare Drivers Union right here in Dallas. We as a combined force can make moves in the right direction (negotiate minimums/mile, etc) . Just go to the lots in DFW and you will have drivers falling over each other to sign up.
I don't believe in mandated "solutions." Any "solution" just creates more problems. The issues will sort themselves over time. If rideshare is not a profitable endeavour for the ant at the current rates, the ant will leave the business in search of a profitable opportunity. Folks will not pursue an unprofitable business for extended periods of time. When enough ants leave, the platforms will have to increase incentives to win them back, namely increase fairs.

This concept also applies to the platforms themselves. They cannot lose money forever. They will need to either combine so as not to compete on pricing or compete in different areas. Maybe one competes on price and one competes on quality - requiring better vehicles, more highly rated drivers, additional services, etc. and is able to charge a premium for those offerings.

A certain subset of folks believe you can regulate and legislate to a desired outcome. All it does is end up producing inefficiencies and greater problems, in both number and magnitude, than were present to begin with.
 
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